ACRO Petition in Germany successfull !!!

by Gonzo23

Hello People!

Yesterday was the JHV (The main Meeting from the german Paragliding association). And the Petition to legalize Acro in Germany was successfull!
Nearly 10 People spoke in front of the public and said that complete legalisation is very urgent. Even Karl Slezak (Safety -DHV) was speaking and Toni Bender (Very known Pilot in Germany). After that the Petition was accepted by nearly 100% of the People who were present.
What does that mean? Probably a new Group will be formed to legalise our Sport completely in germany.

Greets

Martin

Latest Comments

by Gonzo23

The DHV didnt start something, someone told the DHV to do it. Well to form a Group of people who talk about Acro.
And Mr Karl Slezak is a man with 2 Faces. I first have to see that DHV does something in this direction, and then i will believe him.

Cya

by Acroflo

@Gonzo23: I got the chance to talk to Karl Slezak, during a entry test for the flightinstruktor-training, and was surprised the man has a very reasonable if not appreciating view of acro flying.

Furthermore is it not (just) the DHV blocking acro but a flaw in the aviation law, which takes paragliders the same way as sailplaines. In difference to paraglidingacro maneuvers, you can test a specific maneuver in very detailed way (concerning forces, rotationspeed...a.s.o.) which you can not do when it comes to our "aircrafts" because they´re to ....well... wobbly. So its the LBA which as well has to change some things.

Btw. If they finally after years and years start to do something, its probably not the best way to... well...flame against them.

just my 5 cents,

by Gonzo23

by paal

I am VERY happy for this. DHV have been fighing against acro for too long now.
Respect.

zeroSIXzero

by simon2

Another point is, when one wing of a sailglider would brake for example, the pilot has no real chance to get out of his plane. We have a Rescue! (Normally 2) and the fullstall. So we also need only enough altitude

So I think the LBA has no real arguments :D

But lets see what the future brings :)

Greets Simon

(hey Martin, cool pic ;))

by petlualex

I think it`s bullshit to say that you can`t legalize acro just because it can destroy the aircraft! that´s just a real theoretc way of thinking about this topic from people who don`t know anything about it! a paraglider is destroyed all the time! for example in thermal flight! so why don`t we forbid this too?

the latest are the greates

by audacium

Hello Martin,

You do not need to persuade ME but the LBA :). My point was to make clear that with all probability the working group will have to work hard to make progress regarding legal acro flying in Germany. And it will take some time. The petition is a starting point, it does not change the relevant laws.

Your comparison of sailgliders and acro wings is not completely valid, because - as mentioned in my post - a sail glider normally does not become unflyable if a manoeuvre goes wrong. You recover and can continue flying. In acro flying, it will happen comparably often that the wing stops flying and cannot be recovered, so we have to use the rescue.

Now from the perspective of the LBA I am sceptical that they will easily reverse their stand from 2002. In their mindset they see "an aircraft which folds itself up and then falls down". From my experience with aviation authorities there is often a strong hesitation to accept new things. Often the deciding people do not fly themselves at all but are civil servant lawyers and will foremost think about liabilities etc.

Best, Eduard.

by Gonzo23

Hi Eduard!

Ive heard that theres a law in Germany which says that same or similar group of people should be treated in the same way. So if you allow Acro on normal sailgliders, u have to treat hanggliders and paragliders the same way! Oh.. by the way! Acro with Hot air baloons is allowed in Germany...!
Its very strange situation at the moment here. Its not allowed, but M.Küng is allowed to fly Acro everywhere, make shows etc. And is a worker of the DHV...
Many People fear Acro because they say that is dangerous, but if u think that acro pilots search for the biggest height and the most silent air, and if u compare with "normal" way of paragliding.... Then it sometimes look that normal way of flying is more dangerous (50 m above the ground in turbulent air).
2002 also the Argument was formed, that if you would allow acro on "special" acro wings or take part in an acro training then you would have to sign that u could probably die in the worst case... ! The DHV lets the liga thermal pilots sign exactly the same document...

But for now, like u said... A Group will be formed, and we will see...

Dowidzenia!

Marcin!

by akira

Full Ack, very well summarized.

by audacium

Hello,

It is nice that now the DHV seems not to be opposed any more to acro as it once was.

However, there is nothing historical, unbelievable etc. about the decision of the JHV. There will be a working group, nothing more, which will look for ways whether it is possible to legalize acro and how. Acro has not suddenly become legal nor is it going to happen in the next weeks or months, I dare say.

There already has been once a working group in 2002 which discussed the possibility of legalizing acro flying in Germany. The main reason why that did not go ahead is still valid today: aerobatics flight with paragliders is prohibited by law (an ordinance), whereas LuftVO §8(1) prohibits aerobatics flight with "Luftsportgeräten", a class which comprises mostly ultralights, paragliders, hanggliders, parachutes.

Now, this ordinance can only by changed by the Luftfahrtbundesamt (LBA), the highest German aviation administration. Back in 2002 the LBA was rather hostile to changing the ordinance with the reasoning, that it is hard to willingly legalize manoeuvres which can actually destroy the flying ability of the "aircraft". (I do not find this entirely absurd...) If you make a bad manoeuvre in an aerobatics aircraft you can recover (given minimum height requirements) and the airplane will continue to fly. Given a badly executed acro maneuvre, our wing will stop flying and we need the rescue. I can see that any aviation administration will be hesitant to allow such manoeuvres where the "aircraft" is kind of destroyed.

Now, as far as I can see there is no reason why the LBA should have changed its opinion or change it suddenly. The only thing that has really changed is that there seems to be cautious support from the DHV. But the working group will need a lof of good reasoning to persuade the LBA to change anything to the rule above in the LuftVO. Remember, it is not only some little regulation somewhere which can be quickly changed, it is a "high-level" ordinancy of the highest federal aviation law and any changes will not come quickly, I suppose.

Do I think acro should be legal? Of course. Do I think it will be easy to accomplish as long as paragliders are part of aviation law and are treated as some kind of aircraft like an Airbus380? No.

There was once a chance for paragliders to get out of aviation law and become simple sports devices. Then there would be no hassle. But the DHV passed up this opportunity (with many bad arguments like "people will die" etc.)

The working group from 2002 succeeded insofar to exclude negative manouevres from the definition of aerobatics flight with paragliders. Now, only roll- and pitch angles above 90 degrees are considered acro. But this way will not be enough for the next step. There needs to be some kind of aerobatics definition for paragliders, which in turn is prohibited by the ordinance. Thus, the only clean way is to change this ordinance which again will probably be very hard.

Yes, there is positive change within the DHV. Historical? Acro legal soon? I doubt it.

I am pretty sure the working group itself would rather damp expectations instead of pretending things like "acro is legal in one month". If we damp our expectations there can only come pleasant surprises :).

Cheers, Eduard.